Why Foster Kids Are Set Up to Fail & How We Can Stop It | Sharon Dunlevy

Sharon Dunlevy is an educational advocate for children in foster care

>> Tiffanie: According to the adoption and foster care analysts and reporting System, an estimated 369,000 children are in the child welfare system as of 2022 today. Joining us is Sharon Dunlevy. She's an educational advocate for children in the foster care system. So Sharon, I want to say thank you so much for being here.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Well, thank you, Tiffanie, for letting me be here. I'm real excited.

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely. What a God. Your job is so important, but probably also so sad.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: It is, and it's not something that very many people do. So being an educational advocate, I live in Indiana and we do have educational advocates on staff in our department of child welfare. And I was actually hired by m. A licensing agency because they wanted some more one on one time with the kids in our licensing agency. But most states don't even have educational advocates. So what I do is I not only do I work with kids and make sure that their educational rights are being looked after, but I train foster parents to be those educational advocates because otherwise, you know, you said that there's like 690,000, children in foster care right now and when they age out, at least a quarter of them are going to end up homeless. Ah, at least 20% of them are going to end up incarcerated. So that prison school to prison pipeline is really real for foster kids. And so what I want to do is make sure that when they age out, they are ready for a college or career, that they are ready to live independently, that they are ready to take care of themselves so that they don't repeat cycles that have happened in their past. And so when you're, when I saw your podcast, I was like, I'm not sure if I'm a right fit. But I messaged you because I was like, you know, I, I think I am because I know you don't just talk about crime, but there is that idea of foster kids are bad kids and therefore they end up as criminals. I mean, I see it in the TV shows all the time. Half of the time they're, oh, he was in the child welfare system. And so we have this perception and that perception is start, it, can be real. Like I said, one fifth of them will end up incarcerated, but it's because we're not educating them well. And so we've got to start when they're kids. We've got to make sure that their rights are being protected, that they are getting the help they need in the schools. And so that's what I do do. I help them and I help their foster parents know how to advocate for them.

>> Tiffanie: So important. Oh, my goodness. And another problem, though, is sometimes the people who are adopting these children are doing it for the wrong reasons.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: It can be, yes, I will say, you know, foster parents don't make money. Every. I know that's kind of a thing out there that, oh, they're in it for the money. The reality is the stipend they get, very minimally covers just the cost of the kid. But there are some who do it for the wrong reasons. Absolutely. I had a kid that I worked with that he was adopted out of a family. His. His mom had died from a drug overdose, and his dad was an alcoholic drug user, so he was adopted. And, his adoptive parents ended up being abusive, and so he ended up back in the system. You know, it does happen. You hear those horror stories, the ones that I train, they have to come to me because they. Well, foster parents have to have so many credits a year in terms of training and so. But they also, the ones that I work with, they want to be there. They want those trainings. They engage, they ask the right questions. They really want to do what's best for the kids in their home. And so I work on giving them the tools to do the best for their kids in their home. But there's always going to be those bad apples. And there is some kids who are removed, who should never have been removed from their homes. We tend to remove kids for poverty. Rather than helping the family before they hit poverty level, we take their kids away, and then they're busy in court hearings and all of these other things trying to get their kids back, and they're missing work, and then they're fired, and then they're in poverty again. So it's a cycle, right? We've created a system that feeds itself and it's not always good. And who's hurt? It's not the families, it's the kids. And so again, that's where somebody like me comes in, is. We come in and we say, look, the kid's supposed to be the center of this. This is how we help these kids. They're not bad. They did. They're not responsible for the mistakes that their families made. They need all the opportunities so that they can grow up and be productive citizens. I mean, is that what we want? We want them to earn their own way. We want them to succeed. We want them to have their own families and have their own families that don't end up in the child welfare system. So anything we can do to help change those Types of statistics is best.

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely. I mean, we just need more love and acceptance out there. And people need to stop stereotyping and putting labels on people because one is not the same as all, so.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: No, no. And every child is different. Most kids in foster care will have trauma and they'll have trauma behaviors, but it's different for every kid. Two kids could go through the exact same traumatic event and react to very different ways. We have sibling groups like that all the time, Experience the same abuse, the same, neglect. Parents are the same drug users, alcohol users, in poverty, whatever. And yet one will just be able to kind of move on with their lives where another one can't ever get over it. And so every child needs to be treated individually to find each child's strength. What are they good at? Ah, not what happened to them and what are they bad at, but what are they good at. Like, looking for the positives in everybody, but especially for foster kids, that's a big deal. When you start looking at a kid and seeing what good they do, you're going to focus more on those positives and not so much on the negatives. And so that's another thing I teach my foster parents is don't focus so much on what they're doing wrong. Let's. Let's really pick those pieces when, when they do something really well. Let's really build that up and kind of let some of this other stuff go. Because these poor kids, they've been blamed for everything and they feel it. They feel like they're. They're worthless. I had another kid that I worked with while teenager. He could constantly told me that she was evil. Like, that she was born of the devil. And it came from the fact that her mom basically characterized her dad as the devil, and that every bad behavior that this girl did was her dad's fault. So she was born of the devil, and she truly believed that of herself. And that's heartbreaking.


Tiffany says trauma affects the way the brain develops

It's heartbreaking, absolutely.

>> Tiffanie: Because, I mean, you have no self worth like you. and then you want to know why these kids end up the way they end up? On drugs and doing this and doing that. Well, when you don't think that you're worth anything, why would you even try?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Yeah. And that's where, like I said, you know, all these kids who are removed because of poverty, a lot of times the cycle just continues when they don't realize that they can break out of that. They're going to just go back to what they're used to and they're going to go back to what they know. And it's horrible. It's awful. Like I said, a lot of times, foster care alumni, those who had been in the foster care system, will often have their own children go back into the foster care system. And it's not because abused become abusers. That's actually not true. What it is is that they never learned how to have a positive, loving relationship. So they end up being with somebody who ends up treating them the same way and their children the same way that they were treated. So they just. It's not that they're the ones that are abusing, but they get into relationships that are abusive because that's what they know. And so, yeah, we've got to break those cycles. We've got to get them out of those patterns and show them that there are better ways and that they're worth something. Like you said, Tiffanie, they're worth better than being treated that way.

>> Tiffanie: And that goes for anybody. Nobody deserves to be abused. But when a kid's already been through so much and you feel like you've just been thrown away, like you really need.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yes.

>> Tiffanie: To work at, showing them that, no, you're not a throwaway. You know, they just don't know what they had, so.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, we all thought our parents were horrible, right? At some point, yes. At that, point we all went, oh, my gosh, why did my parents do this to me? But, holy cow, after you talk with these kids and you hear their stories and you think, okay, I was really lucky. My parents were pretty darn good. So it does make you appreciate a little bit more. But I will tell you, too, these kids can be so inspiring. So when you do work with them and you really can break through that protective barrier that they put up in front of themselves, when you can get in there and really start to see the real person behind the abuse, behind the trauma. These kids are amazing. They're amazing. Their hearts. Like, I don't know how many kids told me that they wanted to grow up to be a counselor because their counselor was so important in their life. They wanted to be doctors because they always felt like the doctors never listened to them and believe them. So they want to do something different, right? They want to be teachers. They want to be. They want to be heroes. They want to have these jobs and these dreams where they can help somebody not go through what they went through. And they're. It's so inspiring when you work with them and you talk with them and you. And you Realize, yeah, these are real kids who real have real dreams and real ideas of what their life could look like and how they could help society if we would let them.

>> Tiffanie: Right. I mean, I feel like so many times when people come from trauma, sometimes the most beautiful things can come from it. Just because now you know what's needed out in the world.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah, yeah, you do. And if you haven't experienced trauma, it's hard to understand. It's hard to understand what happens. But getting a little scientific here, but trauma, especially when it happens in children, it physically affects the way the brain develops. So I have a graphic I use when I'm teaching my foster parents and it shows the, size of a three year old brain, of a child who's never experienced trauma. And it'll be like this size. And then I have a graphic of a child who's a three year old who experienced neglect. And the brain literally is this size. And it's because the brain is not growing because of that neglect. Our brain is made up basically. Our brain grows the more experiences we have. And those experiences can be positive or negative. But there's also parts of our brain that need to be fed in order for certain things to develop, like our prefrontal cortex where we make all of our decision making. In order for that to grow, the child needs to be able to have some control in their life. Well, a child of abuse or neglect doesn't have control. Right. Everything is happening around them, but they're not in control. And so they're not making their own decisions and they're not growing this part of the brain. And that just continues to pile on each other. The nice thing about the human brain is that we're learning that it's healable. So even if a child does have a brain dismiss large if they're moved into a new environment and they have new experiences that are positive, that brain can grow. It takes a long time, it takes consistency, it takes, you know, lots of patience. But that brain actually can grow. And so one of the advantages of moving a child into a new home is those new experiences, trying getting somewhere different, having different experiences, going to school and doing well, Having school staff that understands them all helps that brain grow. But if we don't understand trauma, we don't understand how that affects them actually physically and not just mentally and behaviorally.

>> Tiffanie: That all makes so much sense. Like they say, knowledge is power, so it can keep growing.


I train foster parents, and I train them in different ways

Do you guys also offer therapy to the children?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: I do not personally, but I work with other people that are Therapists. So what I do is I train foster parents, and I train them in different ways. I offer my own classes. I have state contracts where I train for certain states, like my mailing list of foster parents, and all of that, I'll bring in outside people to train. So, like, in a week, I'm doing a class on sleep where I've partnered with a man named Kim Palmaris, and he has this thing that he does around using their senses to help kids fall asleep. Because foster kids, that's one of their scary times is nighttime. So night terrors, getting to sleep, all of that is a big, big challenge. And when I met with him, I'm like, wait, you do something on sleep? My foster parents could use that. So I'll have him come in and train around holiday time. I had met with another lady through LinkedIn, and she does a class on holiday stress. So I had her come in in December and teach my foster parents. And in fact, now we're doing a summit together where we're going to teach foster parents some different skills on how to help their kids when they're in those periods of tantrum dysregulation, all of that. And we're going to bring in different experts. So what I try and do is if I can't provide what they need, I will send them to somebody that can.

>> Tiffanie: Basically, that's amazing. What states do you work in?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: So I have a training contract in Ohio. I am, I, do some training still here in Indiana for different groups that I've trained for for years. I'm talking with, the state of Rhode island at the end of this month. I've also talked to the state of Utah that they' also looking at possibly having me come on and be a trainer. So I would love to train for any states that want me. So I'm trying to get my name out there, which is why I do podcasts, right? Is to get my name out there and say, hey, I can teach your foster parents on how to help the kids do well in school so that when they graduate, they're ready to live on their own.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, my God, that's so important. You're helping the kids grow and you're helping the parents deal with the growth, because, yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter if you come for a foster family or not. Like, kids have emotions, they have hormones, they have, you know, ride.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: And in today's society, because kids have so much access to social media and regular media, there is a lot of theories, going around that Every child has some type of traumatic exposure. Now, again, every child responds differently. But when you can hear about school shootings all the time and Covid and all of the. And, Well, right now with the political climate being kind of up in the air and everybody's a little nervous and nobody knows what's going on, all of those things the kids are exposed to. When I went to school, we didn't know all that stuff unless we stayed up till 11. Well, we could have watched the news, I guess, at 5 or 6 or whatever it was, but a lot of times, you know, you didn't. My parents would watch the news before they went to bed, but we wouldn't watch the news, so we didn't have that exposure. But now kids can see everything. And so there is a lot of fear and trauma for any child when they think about, oh, you know, am I going to go to school today and a kid's going to bring a gun? Because it can happen anywhere. And they know that. So, yeah, there's a lot of that. So there's. There's more and more need for us to understand trauma, to understand how that affects the brain and understand what happens in their adulthood. How does that continue on into adulthood and affect what happens as they grow older?

>> Tiffanie: It, definitely affects adulthood. I mean, that's like the whole basis of my show. Like, what happens to us when you're a child affects how you are as an adult. And it's time that people realize that and start taking your job as a parent seriously, because you can really up.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: kid.

>> Tiffanie: Just call it what it is. You know what I mean?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: No parent is perfect.

>> Tiffanie: I've made mistakes. My son will tell you, made some mistakes, but I've learned from them, and I make sure I don't repeat them.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah, no, you know, it is funny because my own kid, like, the same thing. I'll hear something come out of my mouth and I'll go, oh, my gosh. My parents used to tell me that, and I always said I would never say that, and then I do. But, yeah, I think, you know, part of the problem, I think, and part of that whole pipeline to crime has been around the idea that we've lost teaching compassion. Like, we've, we've. We've come become such an individualistic society that we've stopped caring about what other people are feeling and thinking, and we make assumptions. You talked about labels earlier. We do. We label everybody. Right? And we teach our kids to label everybody. And so we're, you know, that one of the biggest frustrations that we have in the child welfare world has actually to do with the Justice Department part of it. So here in Indiana I think they've raised the age, but they, children who are going to, are like going to court for a hearing and they're 14 or younger. They have, they might be in a juvenile detention center, but all of the courts are in where the adults are held. And so what would happen is while a kid was waiting trial, they might temporarily be housed with adults in those detention centers. And Indiana finally passed a bill that I think they, if they're 14 or younger, they can't be held in an adult detention center. But that's still really young. 14, very different.

>> Tiffanie: you got these big, big men and women in your face and, and.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: You'Re exposing them to bad behavior from adults. Like why would they, if they can go to an adult court and see these horrible people acting ridiculously, they're going to think, well, I can do that too. Right. So we don't think about what we expose our kids to necessarily. And we've got to be really cognizant about that. So we know again, brain research shows that ah, that frontal lobe does not fully develop by the age of 25 until the age of 25. But you think about all the things that kids do before that age. They drive at 16, 15 in some states that's 10 years before their frontal lobe is. They, you know, they can vote at 18, which that's fine with me, I'd rather have them vote but, but they can also go to war at 18 and then that's seven years before their frontal lobe is developed and then they're going to come back and have PTSD. duh. Right. They can drink at 21. So they learn to drive first and then they learn to drink and then you're shooting a gun and then you're shooting a gun. Yeah, I haven't even brought in gun in ownership. Right. So, you know, I mean when we think about all the things we expose our kids to, we're exposing them to a lot of grown up stuff at a very young age. And I do feel like I'm very much against book bans, things like that because. Not because I don't think there are certain books that shouldn't be in schools, but I think that parents need to take a bigger role in making that decision. So instead of putting it on the school to say, you know, take off these books, I don't like the parents should be talking to their kid and saying, here's why. I don't want you to read this book, right? Have these real conversations with your kids about your beliefs. Why do you, you know, feel this way? Why do we do these things?


Parents don't want to have to talk to their kids about hard stuff

But I think a lot of these book bannings and stuff have become almost. It's partly control, but it's also laziness. It's. Parents don't want to have to talk to their kids about hard stuff, so they'd rather they didn't ever get exposed to it, rather than, okay, yeah, Tommy, brings home this book that you're kind of like, oh, where'd you get this from? You just talk to them and say, you know, I understand why you got this book, but I just don't think it's the right book for you, and here's why. But we don't want to have those conversations, and we don't want to be, you, know, we want to be their friends. We want to be the good parents, but sometimes, you know, you got to be the strict parent. But we also have to be. We have to take responsibility for our own kids, for their actions, for what they believe, how they act. We can't keep passing accountability to. My kid would never do this. You'll never hear me say that about my kid. What did my kid do now is usually. And usually my kid was one of those con artists that everybody be like, scoob, it is so cute. She'd come and give me a hug every day, and I'm like, yeah, she's got you snowed. My kid's 23 now and an amazing human. But you know what I mean, right? It's like this whole dynamic, but we talk about everything at the dinner table. There's not anything we don't talk about. we hosted five foreign exchange students while Scout was in high school. And, they were always surprised about, like, you know, what we would talk about, but we would talk about if they heard something at school and they wanted to talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it. Let's be open. We've got to do that more. We've got to be working with our kids more, having real conversations with them, showing compassion to other people and teaching them compassion. and then, like I said, look for those positives in your kid, not always the negatives. I think that makes a huge difference in how they feel about themselves and how they look at other people. If we're always concentrating on the negatives, don't be surprised when you've got a gloomy Gus at home who's always looking at the negatives. You know, they're going to pick that up. So.

>> Tiffanie: That is so well said. Oh my goodness. 150 million percent. Like, I totally agree. And I just feel like also as a society, we're like picking on the wrong stuff. We're gonna pick on books. I'm pretty sure we have bigger fish to fry than books.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Right. Let's feed, let's.


Tim: Keep communication open with foster kids after they graduate

Let's talk about the fact that we have so many kids in schools right now who can't even get lunch because we got rid of the free lunch programs. Right. I mean, we, we're a country that supposedly has billions of dollars just floating around and we have children starving. Right, Right. Yeah, it, it, yeah, I'm with you. Our focus is not where it should be. It's not.

>> Tiffanie: And it hasn't been in a very long time.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Very long time. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: But I think you are 100%. Keep the communication open. I mean, that's how you're going to know what your child's really thinking, how they're feeling. And I mean, some things you might not want to hear, but be thankful they're telling you they feel comfortable to do that.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yes.

>> Tiffanie: No, like my son, he's 19 now and there's been a few times where I'm like, I'm like, shit. But you're like, cool.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: You came to me about it. That's awesome.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: You know, Right.

>> Tiffanie: And in my head I'm just like, don't over here, don't over here.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: And the thing is, for our foster kids, you know, our 23 year old lives in our basement. Housing here is horrible. I don't want them wasting money on rent. But you know, if they could buy a house. But the housing market's a mess, you know, so they live in our basement. As long as they're working, they live in our basement. We're fine with it. They have their own life. But, you know, we've provided them that space. Right. To be comfortable, to be, you know, that family that's open and, and we actually always were the safe family. All of her friends would come and do sleepovers at our house or do events with us because, I don't know, their families didn't ever do anything. We were the ones who would go places and stuff and, and we would have, you know, we'd have little adventures together. But, but you know, we know that they need to grow up, they need to be out on their own. But we also, you know, they need to be supported. But they always have, like Scout always knows that they're going to have us to come back to. My foster kids don't always have that right. When they age out, they age out. They may or may not still be in touch with their foster parents. Certain states don't like foster parents to communicate with kids after they graduate. I don't particularly, I don't particularly agree with that. They don't like their, their workers communicating with the kids after they graduate. I don't particularly agree with that. I think our kids need those, those adults because like I said, let's say they can't get an apartment because the housing market or there's just not enough money or whatever, who do they turn to? That's where they end up being homeless. They end up, they need consistency because.

>> Tiffanie: That'S what they haven't had.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right. They need that support. They need those extra people that can just say, you know, hey, if something goes bad, I got a room for you and you. So my kid always knows I've got a room for them. But not everybody else always has that. So again, that's not the kids fault that they're on the streets. Right? That is a bigger societal issue that we've set up these systems in such a way that they can't do any better. And we've got to change that so that they have those fallbacks, they have some support. They, we've got to be better about helping those families that are in poverty before we remove their kids. Don't wait till they, you know, their kids are being neglected and starved. Why aren't we reaching out and helping them earlier? Why are we not doing those types of things?

>> Tiffanie: And yeah, he can prevent some of this. And then you don't have families splitting up and you don't create the narratives that now live in their mind.

>> Tiffanie: And that's so important. And this system should not tell a parent whether you're a foster parent, real parent, whatever, how long you should love this child for.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right?

>> Tiffanie: Because you honestly believe if you adopt a little Timmy when He was like 6 and now he's 18, but you still love Timmy, you want to be part of life, there's no reason why now you have to be ripped away too.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Exactly. Ah, it doesn't make any sense. And again, all the research shows that kids, all kids need more than just their parents as adults in their lives. They need other adults, church leaders, community leaders, you know, getting them into groups like Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, 4H. We did, we are a 4H. Family, you know, those types of things, getting them into sports. You know, how many kids bond with their coaches, and that is an important relationship. So imagine, you know, your kid does soccer all through, you know, their school years and everything else, and then they're told, well, you can never talk to your soccer coach again. Right. That wouldn't make any sense. We would never say that. You know, but that's what happens with some of these foster kids. And so we. We've got to get them those. Those adults that can just be that support person. I've. The one that I was telling you about that had gotten adopted, and then their adoptive parents were abusive. I worked with him to get him graduated. He had a lot of issues coming out of a, residential facility and all of this stuff. And we got him graduated. He went and went back home, but didn't stay there very long. He didn't like the environment, so he worked with Department of Child Services. They helped him get an apartment, helped him buy a motorbike.


You know, foster kids suffer trauma that's invisible. And, and trauma is one of those invisible things

He, is now a manager at a Domino's. And he called me when he turned 23 because he had just gotten his first own apartment, no roommate, and he wanted me to come and see it. So my husband and I went down and we saw his apartment with his dog. And, you know, I'm still a support person for him, and he wants to celebrate with me. Why would I not want to do that? Right. Why would I not want to be that person that he can just turn to? certainly I'm not giving him money or anything, but I am celebrating with him that he's successful, and I love seeing that. He's just blossom so much, and he's just such a cool guy, and he's doing so well and so well.

>> Tiffanie: Those are important milestones. So of m course you want to be celebrated in those times.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: You're human.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right?

>> Tiffanie: Sometimes if a dog pees on a tree wants to be celebrated. You know what I mean?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Like, we sometimes treat our pets better than we do our kids.

>> Tiffanie: Ain't that the truth?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah. So, yeah, it. It's sad. It's sad. But, you know, I'm trying to make my difference the way I can. I work with other people in that child welfare system who are doing the same thing where we're. We're carving out what we can and trying to bring awareness. You know, doing podcasts like this just so people are talking about it. You know, we don't talk about foster.

>> Tiffanie: Care, what you're doing. I do. I absolutely love what you're doing. And I've actually had a few guests on my show that were foster kids and they talk about, you know, it's hard. It's a hard life. And, you know, a lot of them end up going through the drugs and the alcohol because you're just trying to numb the pain. Luckily, all mine have pulled through, but they all don't.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right, right. And. And it is, it's. It's. We just, we don't realize. And, and trauma is one of those invisible things. Right? You don't look at somebody and go, they suffer trauma. You know, they're not in a wheelchair. They're not obviously having an, issue. You can't look at somebody and know what happened in their background. But, we've we've just, again, if we would just look at the world through eyes of compassion and trust that, you know, there's something behind this, that they're not just doing this because they want to be evil. They're doing this because something happened to them. And that's, you know, that's an. That's what's happening. And then what do we do to show them some compassion? We may be the first person that's ever showed them compassion. And why wouldn't we want to be that one person?

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely.


Sharon Dunlevy teaches compassion and positive parenting

Well, if anyone is interested in your services, first, how do people get a hold of you? And second, what kind of topics other than like, sleep and stuff like that? What kind of things do you teach?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Sure. So best way to get ahold of me is you can find me either on Facebook or LinkedIn. And if you just look for Sharon Dunlevy, D U N L E V Y you'll find me. and so I do a lot of trainings around educational advocacy, but I also talk a lot about. I've done a lot of research on brain development and trauma and how that all works. So I do a lot of trainings on, like, positive parenting. How do you. I'm, doing a training this Saturday for an, agency, and we're going to talk about how do you support the kids with developmental assets? Like, what are ways that we focus on those positive assets that a kid has and really build on them so that they can do well as adults. And again, also how to bring in those outside people. I do a, training on teaching kids to be compassionate. It's kind of a hard thing to think about is how do you teach compassion? But you can teach compassion. And in fact, you have to teach compassion. It's not necessarily just, you know, something that Happens. So I do a lot of trainings on that as well, so those are kind of the areas that I focus on.

>> Tiffanie: I know. it sounds crazy, right? Like, we have to teach people how to be compassionate. And it's like, but if they've never had it, how would they know?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Exactly. Exactly. And again, if we can model it, then isn't it more likely other people will catch it? But we have to model it.

>> Tiffanie: That's what we have to do, as a society. Like, if, we could just every day show, you know, kindness to a stranger or that actually spread it. It's been proven. They've done studies. Smile at somebody in a line, oh, my God, you might have just made their day.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Right? Right? Yeah. Yeah, it. It is. It's amazing. Like, you know, we. I. You know, I'm kind of a naturally upbeat person, and I tend to walk around with a smile on my face. And I do get people who talk to me and, like, obviously think I'm very comfortable. They just share their life story with me. I'm like.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, my gosh, you guys. I could be, like, checking out at a grocery store, and I'm going to hear all. How they've been up all night in the bathroom. And I'm like, first of all, like, why do you think I want to hear this? But I'm like, oh, no, that's horrible. It'll be rare.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Like, maybe, they just needed somebody to unload on. So I just smile and not y.

>> Tiffanie: That's. I mean, that's about it right there. I'm gonna make sure that I leave your links in the show notes, but was there anything else that you wanted to share?


Tiffany: I think the justice system needs some tweaking

>> Sharon Dunlevy: No, I just really appreciate you having me on, Tiffanie. I really do.

>> Tiffanie: No, this was, This was a pleasure. This is a topic, actually, I've wanted to cover because there are just so many avenues you can go down. And it's definitely part of the system that needs some tweaking. I mean, the whole justice system is as broken as it can be, but that's definitely a branch that needs to be right?

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: So I would love to help in spreading the word.

>> Sharon Dunlevy: Awesome. that's wonderful. So thank you.

>> Tiffanie: Thank you.